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Randal
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« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 04:54:14 PM »

Sorry, but I can't resist.  I just know that Randal or some guy on this forum will step in with a "comment" about your assessment of mares and geldings!

Joe,

Wes asked me about the same man several weeks ago.  My personal opinion is that he would make a claim, get shot down, make another claim, get shot down again, etc.  Anything to make people think he was an expert... 

There has been a longtime story (perpetuated by older members of the Mudd family back in the 1970-85 era) that Booth and Herold were spotted sitting on the steps of Brice's Chapel.  I even had a lengthy dispute on the tale with a gentleman from that museum (no longer there) at a committee meeting with the Maryland Office of Tourism when Joan Chaconas and I were spearheading the Civil War Trails Initiative maps of the Booth Escape Route, which have been distributed widely over the past 5-6 years.

The road which led to Brice's Chapel is still there today.  Bob Cook of this forum could hike to the site.  He lives in the Bryantown Tavern, which is not that far from the Chapel's area.

I wouldn't comment on "gelding" 'cause that flat scares me! Grin
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Randal
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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2012, 07:39:29 PM »

I bet that you think us "mares" are too temperamental also...

Yup. Roll Eyes
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J Madonna
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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2012, 08:42:56 PM »

I agree completely, Jerry, in your assessment.  One thing to clarify, however, the pine thicket where Booth and Herold supposedly hid is not really in the swampy area.

There is little grass in a pine thicket and less for a horse to forage on than a swamp.
At that time of year it's 50/50 if there would be anything in bloom on which they could eat.
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Randal
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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2012, 08:58:37 PM »

Correct again. I worked in the "Piney Woods" of East Texas (at a zoo) for 5 years, there is virtually zero grass because Pine trees rarely shed, (because of the warmer weather) hence hardly any sunlight reaches the ground.
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Joe Gleason
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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2012, 09:36:14 PM »

Owens -(Adams) Statement
First things first. Figuing out This Way vs. That Way is critical to understanding what Owens is actually saying. I will STOP at each
point so the readers can decide for themselves.

 Bryantown, md. April 28,1865, James Owens, farmhand, living with Mr. Austin L. Adams, who keeps a sort of tavern at Newport.Md.
states; STOP; ( location, Bryantown)

About two weeks ago, it was on a Thursday night, I was at home; it was pretty late, nearly supper time, when two men came there on horseback,(STOP; location, Newport) accompanied by a white boy, they got off their horses, and the boy took them and went away. One of the horses was a roan, or iron gray, and the other was a light bay with a small star on the forehead. One of these men was lame and carried a crutch; he wore a cloth slipper on his right foot, and carried the crutch under his right arm. He had on a close-bodied coat and wore a shawl; he was a stouter man than the other, who was a small man, I think that he had very light whiskers; he wore two coats and a soft, black, low-crowned hat with a narrow brim. They came to our place STOP; (location,Newport) and Mrs. Adams was there but Mr. Adams was away, he came home about half an hour after they came; I was not at the house when they came, but was at work, and left them talking with Mr. and Mrs. Adams. I heard the big man who was lame ask if there were any Yankees or soldiers around there; and Mr. Adams told him there had been none for two or three months. Mr. Adamsí place is at Newport, about six miles from the Potomac. That was all I heard them say. Mrs. Adams told them they could not stay there, but that she would give them something to eat. I suppose she was afraid to let them stay there because she was also afraid the soldiers would come and catch them. They stayed in the pines near the house until next evening which was Friday night and were at the house off and on at different times; they did not lodge at Mr. Adamsí but only got meals there. They left in the evening after dark, and went towards Popeís Creek where Thomas Jones lives. A Mr. Bateman, I donít know his first name, who lives at the oak on the roadside about three miles from Newport, as you go through Allenís Fresh towards Cobb Neck, told me that Jones put them across the Potomac. They crossed from Popeís Creek a little above Mrs. {?} Watsonís on the creek. This was a place where they had a boat hid. A man named Lomax used to fish there on the river, gilling shad. I donít know Lomaxís first name. Bateman told me that the men got over the Potomac all right and I judge that he and Jones rowed them across by his saying that they got over all right and by what folks said. The nearest point on the Virginia side opposite Popeís Creek is Mathias point. Their horses came back This Way...

(STOP!
James Owens is being interviewed at Bryantown.  Owens also states that Harbin & Bayden came to Newport from This Way about two weeks ago. This Way meaning Bryantown. What else could he have meant?
 
continuing
 
in charge of the boy, if I were trying to find them I would inquire of the people there who saw them, Mr. A_bey {Robey?} or Oliver who keeps a store there. I judge ______ saw these men but I did not hear him say anything about them. Tom Downey, who lives at Newport and Mr. Budd, who lives about two miles the other side of Newport, and some other folks that I donít know, I judge saw them. I heard gentlemen, that I donít know, ask Mrs. Adams where these men were going, and she said she said they were going to Popeís Creek to cross the Potomac. I know Thomas Harbin and Joseph Bayden {sic}. They came to Mr. Adamsfrom this way (STOP; where did H& B come from? They came from This Way, meaning Bryantown) about two weeks ago. I think they came on Tuesday before I heard of the death of the President. They stayed there about a week, and went away on Saturday night. There was another man with them that I didnít know. I was fishing with gill nets and they came to me and I put them across a little run at Allenís Fresh, on the other side from Mr. Adams, toward the Potomac. They didnít tell me where they were going. They gave me five dollars to put them across the run. I put them across on a Saturday. They were going towards the Banks of Dee. I heard Harbin say that he was going there. I have not seen them since, and do not know whether they have come back or not. James Owens.
 
The horses of John Wikes Booth and David Herold were" taken away by the boy" and somewhere between Newport and Bryantown they
disappeared. It should be noted that the only two roads leading from Newport to Bryantown are flanking the Zakiah Swamp for seveal miles
including the location where the Watson Relics were found.  



                                  

                                                                                                                                          

I encourage everyone to use the maps thread. It can be a useful research tool.
http://lincoln-assassination.com/bboard/index.php?PHPSESSID=92a6f2d13e742ee960878bc4e8ab65eb&topic=2173.0







« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 10:37:17 AM by Joe Gleason » Logged
Randal
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« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2012, 06:03:40 AM »

How long after the fact did Cox jr. recount this story?
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rich smyth
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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2012, 06:29:42 AM »

Very detailed research Joe. You make a strong case.
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J Madonna
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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2012, 07:05:56 AM »


Oh, and Jerry, they were'nt searching for a one-eyed horse. They were looking for a horse that probably would'nt blend very well with the rest of the herd. In particular, a bay mare, 14 and a half hands high with black legs, mane and tail, and a white star on the forehead. White spots also dotted one foot. Saddled or not, you would have to be a brave person to want to keep a horse like that. IMO, you would really have to ask yourself only one question; Is it worth risking your life over?


Joe,
You're premise is that a bay mare would stand out like a sore thumb in the farms of southern Maryland. I know zilch about horses and the farms of Maryland at that time, so I can't confirm or refute your assertion.
 
As to the question "is it worth risking your life over?" let me say this: The Confederate sympathizers that operated on that line had been hardened by 4 years of war and were very savvy. They took many risks for very little reward. For example; George Atzerodt was certainly not a brave man but he was willing to transport the president over the river in a kidnapping scheme.

IMO the reward of a free horse for keeping her hidden from the Yankees and a little bootblack to cover her star and spots, could have been a risk worth taking.
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J Madonna
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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2012, 07:13:57 AM »

Jerry, the one-eyed horse was Powell's mount.  This particular animal was found in the Northern part of the city, taken by Lt. Toffey to the fort thereabouts and stabled with the rest of the army remounts.  Whatever happened to this disreputable nag, I don't know, but he wasn't with Booth and Herold and nowhere near the swamp...... Smiley

You're correct, my mistake.

My point was that the horses of Booth and Herold could have been hidden in plain sight on Maryland farms.

But then again you confirmed my assertion that "Soldiers weren't going to inspect every horse in Maryland to see if one had a blind eye."

Thank You.
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wild bill
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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2012, 10:00:42 AM »

The relevant article is in the Courier, Rick Smith, "What is Horse Faking," Surratt Courier, 33 (April 2008), 4-6. The ability of soldiers, north and south, to fake horse appearance is detailed in Crowninshield, History of the First Mass. Cavalry. which I believe is cited in Smith's article. I do not have the Crowninshield book pages before me at the moment. A. Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes detective encounters it in "Silver Blaze," for what it is worth. Smith also did a bang-up job in the "Owens' Statement" in Surratt Courier, 32 (October 20907), 3-6.
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Joe Gleason
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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2012, 10:53:13 AM »

Laurie,
Since you didn't immediately discredit my map and the information that supports it, you have made me a very happy fellow!  Grin
http://www.dnr.state.md.us/irc/docs/00000778.pdf
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 08:58:55 AM by Joe Gleason » Logged
J Madonna
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« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2012, 04:42:25 PM »

Thanks, Bill!   I'm going to have to look for that article!  As well as read the Sherlock Holmes story - I love Holmes but don't remember that one.....

Anyone remember the one where he discusses the KKK with Watson?
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JS Banning
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« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2012, 06:02:26 PM »

Yes, I remember "The 5 orange pips".

Betty

You don't remember the curious incident of the dog in the night-time?
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Rick Smith
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« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2012, 07:11:08 PM »

Betty,

The observation regarding the dog which did not bark in the night was made by Holmes in the Silver Blaze.

Laurie,

You are right about Owens putting Harbin & Baden across the run, which he was given $5.00 to do, but in Come Retribution, the authors tell of James Owens being interrogated at the Old Capitol Prison by a Lt. S. P. Currier and, I would assume, under a great deal of "pressure," he admitted that he had lied to Col. Wells at Bryantown and that he had actually rowed Harbin & Baden across the Potomac and eventually landed them near Mathias Point. And, supposedly, Owens died in the Old Capitol while in federal custody.  Bill Richter makes a good case in The Last Confederate Heroes as to Owens' fate.  The yankees were fighting to "set men free," and I guess Owens was one of those "set free," at least in spirit.

I remember someone mentioning on the forum that Come Retribution makes a great door stop and maybe it does; but it has a value far exceeding that of a door stop.  It is a treasure.  I have two copies; one upstairs and one down, for ease of access.

Rick

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Randal
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« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2012, 07:21:08 PM »

It was I, who said it would make a good door stop. (sorta like a fruitcake)  Wink
The authors themselves admitted their theory was speculative.

Sorry, but I had a very hard time keeping up with it, and never could cross the finish line.
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