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Author Topic: Sunday Survey for May 13th., 2012  (Read 2302 times)
Gene C
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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2012, 03:02:13 PM »

That's what you get for being "ostentatious"
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The more you know, the more you think the less you know, because you know that you don't know.  The less you know the more you think the more you know, because you don't know that you don't know. 
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Gene C
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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2012, 03:08:46 PM »

Laurie,

Are you sure you didn't mean " I tend to be like a velociraptor?  (a small, fast, carniverous dinosaur -
not that your a dinosaur)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 03:13:44 PM by Gene C » Logged

The more you know, the more you think the less you know, because you know that you don't know.  The less you know the more you think the more you know, because you don't know that you don't know. 
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Randal
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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2012, 03:15:06 PM »

Gene, Gene, Gene,
Do you have any idea how long it takes to get OUT of Lauries doghouse? (I'm still adding a deck to mine) Cheesy

The best way to deal with her is, Yes, Laurie, yes ma'am Laurie, nice dress Laurie, etc.... Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 03:51:52 PM by Randal » Logged

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Gene C
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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2012, 03:17:15 PM »

Laurie,

Yes Laurie, nice dress Laurie!  Is that a new hair style..it looks good on you..

(thanks Randal)   

« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 04:01:02 PM by Gene C » Logged

The more you know, the more you think the less you know, because you know that you don't know.  The less you know the more you think the more you know, because you don't know that you don't know. 
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Randal
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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2012, 03:53:01 PM »

damnation! you even spelled her name wrong! You gotta stay after school today!
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Gene C
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2012, 04:02:28 PM »

      Fixed...(thanks)

Fido and I spend a lot of time in the dog house
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The more you know, the more you think the less you know, because you know that you don't know.  The less you know the more you think the more you know, because you don't know that you don't know. 
 (Not bad for an old dog)
Randal
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2012, 05:16:33 PM »

"And if you ply me with flattery and sweet words, I will instinctively suspect that you are up to something."

Thats exactly what my wife sez. Shocked
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Philip G
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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2012, 07:17:15 PM »

 
Posted by: Laurie Verge
My question has always been - WOULD RECONSTRUCTION OF THE SOUTH HAVE BEEN ANY DIFFERENT IF LINCOLN HAD LIVED TO GUIDE THE PROCESS?

Interesting Point,
We tend to canonize the dead especially someone who was killed suddenly.  So now almost 150 years later, he's Saint Abraham or Super Abraham not just Abraham Lincoln.  But if he lived, what would have happened?  Reconstruction would have been a very, very tough nut to manage.  But we will never know for sure!! 
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John Stanton
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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2012, 08:18:04 PM »

Unfortunately, the questions asked, cannot be answered with a yes or a no. There was so much involved. Study this sequence of events, I believe it will influnce your decision. It appears that there was a plan all along.
    To begin, the war was winding down long BEFORE April. On March 2 Lee wrote to Grant and suggested that "they" negoiate an end to the fighting. Obviously, this didn't go anywhere, but it does emphasis  the awareness that the South had for their dire position. This awarenesss led other persons to to consider alternate ways to end the war in manner that would assure the survival of the Confederate States. Surely, the killing of Lincoln was considered early in the considerations, but abduction was more attractive to more people, This became Plan A.
    March 15.  Booth made his best attempt at abduction, and it failed. He assumed that it would never work. March 17. Sarah Slater arrived in Canada with documents from Richmond that allowed Thompson to take more drastic measures. This led to his pronouncement "This makes the thing all right". The only choice then was where and when. This, I believe, was the bombing of the White House, March 22. Sarah left Montreal for Richmond with Plan B. Blow up the Whiite House. She was not looking for Approval, she was to inform them that it will be done. March 30. Sarah arrives in Richmond, April 1. Harney leaves Richmond for Mosby. April 2 Surratt and Slater leave Richmond for Canada. They arrive onApril 6.
    Meantime, Harney reaches Mosby and  his plan begins. Harney departs from Mosby with 150  of Mosby's men under the command of Capt. George Baylor. April 10 Harney is captured. What a disaster for them. That was the end of Plan B.  Was Plan C created at this time or was it already on the Drawing Boards? Time was becoming critical. Whatever is to be attempted, must be quick. Assassination. It is very unlikely that the Assassination would be approved before the other choices were tried. Certainly, they would not be attempted concurrently. It appears that Booth was allowed to set his own schedule. In which case, the Secret Line could not be put on the alert. How much did the Secret Line know? I feel certain that they were informed on the earlier attempts, but now the Plans were changing so rapidly, the Line was not up to date on plans. Let's say some of the Secret Line knew.  Knowing the schedule may have caused some of them to abandon their Posts.. Not everyone was in favor of a killing - no matter what it was to be called. Any vacancies in the "Escape Committee" could lead to disaster. The location of Booth, and any estimate of his arrival time at critical point was never forwarded to Richmond.  We know from reccords available, that some operatives didn't know Booth, nor had they heard what he did, until Booth or Herold bragged about their infamous deed. I have to believe that they would still withhold assistance, not knowing if whether or not Richmond approved of what they did.
    An opportunity to assist Booth - officially, did not materialize until he arrived at Port Conway., where he met Ruggles, Bainbridge, Jett and Mason. The first three men represented contact with the Secret Service through Conrad, and Mason represented contact with the Cavalry units dispersed through out this whole area. The Cavalry Units were spread from Port Conway to Fredereicksburg, for the sole purpose of finding Booth. They had no idea where he was. Mason left Booth immediately to rally those Troops. "Come Retribution" has some good coverage of this situation and the locations of the Cavalry. My conclusions will differ slightly from their explanations.
    Support for Booth was part of Plan C. Booth was not abandoned by his government, he just didn't know their plan. He didn't recognize the help he was getting. THEY COULDN'T DO MORE UNTIL THEY FOUND HIM. We can now see that it was too little, too slow, and too late.
    Thanks for "listening". This is all based on facts - maybe you see it differently.
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John Stanton
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« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2012, 08:30:54 PM »

OK Laurie, you got my attention. I will concede, for now, that the date may have been the 17th, instead of the 15th. But get ready for a fight.   Remind me to write a spy story on the Wistar Raid AND the Dahlgren raid. The Rebs knew they were coming.
 
Can we agree that there was no help for Booth, from the Confederacy, while he was in Maryland?  Thomas Jones did what he could, only to get rid of the miserable #&"%*, but he could not get help from the Virginia side of the river. Jones had a boat, bought a year earlier - for $18.00, so that was not the problem. There was no one in Virginia that would help, - so he suggested Mrs Q, who was not a spy, but "I think she will help you"

When Herold went to "the Cottage", she wasn't hame. She arrived later in the afternoon, and refused to help.  She did promise a meal, and sent Herold away. She first contacted Baden, because he was stationed on Cawood's camp, not too far away. (He was a "boatman" for Cawood, at $23.000 a month). He, in turn , had some way to cantact Harbin. Harbin was the Big Honcho for the operation, so Booth needed his approval, or he wasn't going anywhere.  Harbin arrived at Mrs. Q, and took the food to Booth.
 At first, Harbin was reluctant to help Booth.  Booth pleaded with Harbin and mentioned his broken leg and a need to get to Dr. Stuart. Harbin agreed to get him that far, but didn't stick  his neck out at all. He sent Booth to William Bryant, who had horses etc.  If that is Government help, I'm not impressed.

In Mrs Q's statement, after her arrest, she said " I did not report it to any government official".  Was this an effort to protect Harbin? She had to be talking about a "Confederate Official". I can't think of where she would find a Union Official in King George, to talk to. She was saying that she did not tell Richmond about Booth.

"Come Retribution" tells a tale of a Thomas Hoome Williamson, arriving in King George about April 20 - before Booth got here - for the express purpose of finding Booth and reorganizing the Secret Line, to  get Booth to Richmond. I am tottally uninformed on this guy and/or his orders. BUT, I would classify this as a true effort by the Confederates to provide some Government help. I think this person should be researched in more detail. To me this reeks of The Confederates knew of Booth's Plans, before and after the Assassination and did try to save Booth, but again I say TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE< TOO SLOW.

PS. The location that Williamson chose to establish his Headquarters, was well down "Rt. 301" - well away from the area that we now know was the area where the spies were active. (I don't know of any spies that were not ON the river.)
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Gene C
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« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2012, 08:09:59 AM »

So how does James Boyd fit into your theory?Huh   
Where does he show up in your scenario?Huh
Was he official or un-official help??
(I think I've had to much thought provoking allergy medicine)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 08:21:09 AM by Gene C » Logged

The more you know, the more you think the less you know, because you know that you don't know.  The less you know the more you think the more you know, because you don't know that you don't know. 
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Randal
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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2012, 08:11:38 AM »

When I get to my library tonight, I'll have a statement regarding Owen's statement, non-statement.
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Joe Gleason
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« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2012, 08:13:46 AM »

"The Confederates knew of Booth's Plans, before and after the Assassination"

                                                                           John Stanton

John, would you be interested in viewing hand writing samples from Emack and Howell?  It may help to answer some lingering questions. Although they have not been examined by a person qualified in "Questioned Document Forenics", it is fairly easy to see that they are remarkably similar when overlayed on each other.
 

Joe



  
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 10:01:38 AM by Joe Gleason » Logged
Joe Gleason
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« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2012, 09:45:18 AM »

Not yet. John Howard and I rode through there about a week ago trying to get a good fix on the Burtle and Oswell Swann locations.  I mentioned to John that I even called my old boss, Joe Cantor, who has lived near Bryantown for decades, to ask if his family ever lived on Cracklingtown. No go.  I'll have do a property search on the homes to determine which are the oldest. Maybe somebody knows something about the Cantors that used to live there. A title search would help, but only if the house is still standing. I'll keep digging.  Wink

Also, I'm also trying to find the exact location of the home that belonged to Confederate Capt. A.J. Gwynn at Pleasant Springs. Do you know if anyone ever located it?



 
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Joe Gleason
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« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2012, 11:53:59 AM »

Thanks Laurie, I want the coordinates to be as accurate as possible and you just put me a little closer to the target. Thanks for the info on the Gwynns. I think the reason that the house was burned was because of Emack stabbing his yankee guard after being arrested while fleeing Pleasant Springs.  It may have been done in retaliation. The Gwynns (and Emack ) all fled to Bryantown in fear of arrest and ended up in the pines behind Dr. Mudd's. This event took place about the first of September, 1861.



« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 12:00:24 PM by Joe Gleason » Logged
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