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Author Topic: Booth's layovers  (Read 7086 times)
historynut1123
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« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2011, 07:30:21 PM »

Joe, this is fascinating. I hope the relics found in the Zekiah are tested and if it's possible, dated.

Now that doesn't prove that the tack is from Booth and Herolds horses, because things like that could have been left by anyone there, but it is curious that the fragments are similar to what was described as the tack they used! Interesting!
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"But hark! The doorbell rings and Mr.J.W. Booth is announced. And listen to the scamperings. Such brushing and fixing."-letter of John Surratt, observing sister Anna
Joe Gleason
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« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2011, 07:11:25 AM »

Thanks Julie, but I don't know if persuing the issue is really worth the effort or expense. Like Laurie says, we will never be able to verify 100% that these relics came from the horses. Given that, I still wanted to offer this scenario so we might better understand what became of the horses, if  this was in fact what happened. I'll still go to my search area when I can with the hope that maybe something else will turn up.  I enjoy the search whether anything comes of it or not.  "Having is not always as great as wanting. Not a very practical thought, but one that is often true"

Laurie,
While I will agree that folks had particular places where they would dispose of unwanted items, I can't figure out why anyone would go that far across the farm passing one wooded area and go into another and still another fifty yards into the swamp just to throw something away. After searching a wide perimeter around the spot where these relics were found, I've yet to find any evidence that this place was used as a dump area. The only things that I found using a metal detector were a "bucktail" fishing lure and a piece of trapping gear, both of which were under water. Pristine would be a nice word to desrcibe this place. IMO Smiley
 
Point "E"...frozen
 

  
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 02:50:19 PM by Joe Gleason » Logged
John Stanton
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« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2011, 10:14:50 PM »

Artifacts require a great deal ofstudy and speculation. Try to to visualize how the area where you are -looked like back then. For example. Since the people back then walked an extra 50 yards, to dispose of the "Trash", then I assume that the nearer field was planted and "hayed". Thus, no trash. That copse of trees (Like that?) may not have been there back then. I have found bullets, brass, copper, barbed wire, eye glasses, everywhere, AND a Maill Drop.  That was a cast iron pot, about 12 " in diam.,  in a shallow hole, with a flat rock on top. We plowed it up when we were burying new power lines to the house I built. The pot got damaged, but I have saved the pieces. (Hall and Tidwell ID it for me) This was before I knew the history of this farm. The pot interested me because it had 3 or 4 feet. (as in legs).  Incidentally, I do not "metal detect" nor do I allow others to search. I like to think that my great grand children may find something in 2063. Is any one a bullet expert? As for your finds, I suspect that is a button.  Someone carrying the trash could have had it pulled off. It would be very rare to lose a hat ornament. I have a Marine Corps buttton. Very rare bc there were so few Marines. I know how it got here - I need to write that uo for the forum. My grand son found a 75# "bomb" (his word) 16" in diam. with a fuse intact. A cannon ball from the Potomac Flotilla. Tha Navy came as got it. They saved my Grand son - thank God. They were rolling it, kicking it, and invited the whole School Bus to come see. We have pictures, and Fragments. The Navy said "It went high-order", whatever that is - but it mage fragments. I'm still looking for Surratt's gold.
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John Stanton
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« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2011, 10:21:36 PM »

P.S. I forgot to mention. If you find an artifact, clean it and stabilize it - but don't polish it. A crusty belt buckle is a treasure, but a shiney, new, buckle is trash. If you don't know how - get help'
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Joe Gleason
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« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2012, 01:15:10 PM »

Betty, it was nice to meet you, Tom, Nan & others at the conference. And, as always, it was great to see all my "boothie" friends again. Had a long chat with Bob Cook, who informed me that the uniform button I posted was not used until after 1900. He is correct and the relic has been eliminated from the evidence which supports my theory. (post corrected) As for the remainder of the artifacts, I still believe that what Mr. Watson found in the Zekiah is related to Booth and Herolds horses. I also enjoyed my conversations with Wild Bill and Rick Smith about the Owens-Adams statement and the location of the interrogation of James Owens. Although our stories are completely at odds with one another, Rick is such a personable and knowledgeable guy that it's very easy to take a liking to him. Bill too!                  

First, everyone should read the statement of James Owens (pg 2. on this thread) and determine what Owens meant when he said "...the horses came back this way in charge of the boy." Had Owens given this statement while in Newport it would have been pretty obvious that the horses were brought back to Newport, which in turn, would support the "horse faking" theory of both Mr. Hall and Rick Smith. Here lies the problem. According to Randal's post, James Owens gave his statement to Col. Wells at the Bryantown Tavern. The tavern is 15 miles north of Newport. My point is not that the horses came "back this way" all the way to Bryantown, I'm simply using it as evidence that those horses were alive and well when "the boy" (Cox Jr.?) took them away when Booth and Herold arrived in Newport. Not for long though. My theory is that Jr. brought the horses 5 miles north towards Rich Hill, and it was then that he and Robey took the horses into the swamp and killed them. (and threw Herold under the bus for it.)
Cox Jr. would later state that he was the only white man who knows where the horses were killed. hmmm. Roll Eyes  Anyway, in his opening sentence, Owens states "...they got off their horses and the boy took them and went away" Never in this statement does anyone give the horses back to Booth and Herold. Nor is their any mention of it being the horses that were used to take them "..over towards Popes Creek where Thomas Jones lives." So, how did they move about without horses? Continue reading statements regarding Thomas Harbin and Joseph Bayden. " They came to Mr. Adams from this way (Bryantown) about two weeks ago. I think they came on
Tuesday.      ....they stayed about a week and went away on Saturday night.
Booth and Herold were there on Thursday and Friday.

So, first things first. Did the "horses come back this way" towards Bryantown or Newport?  Read the statement as if it were you giving it from both locations. Which one makes sense? Proper interpretaion of this statement is a must!  ..

While the relics are important, it's equally important to have the documents to support (or eliminate) them.

Joe

                                                  

                                                  
                                                                               Charles County farmer Donza Watson

For more information about the horses of John Wilkes Booth and David Herold go here;
http://lincoln-assassination.com/bboard/index.php?PHPSESSID=8e41d8b7fc3c2ede2d1b333de1d474cf&topic=1932.0








 


 



« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 11:48:05 AM by Joe Gleason » Logged
Randal
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« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2012, 01:26:52 PM »

 I said they were gathering information there and  Owens gave his statement there. (Bryantown Tavern) Was Owens being 100% truthful? Who really knows what happened to those horses? But I would bet the farm they weren't destroyed in the swamp. And of course, Newport makes more sense than Bryantown.
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Rick Smith
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« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2012, 06:43:46 AM »

Joe,

In your post regarding the Owens statement, you say that no where does Owens say that the horses were given back to Booth & Herold.  Owens says, "They stayed in the pines near the house until next evening which was Friday night . . . . ."   also, "They left in the evening after dark, and went towards Pope's Creek where Thomas Jones lives. . . . ."

It seems clear that the inference is that Booth & Herold rode the same horses out of Newport to Pope's Creek.  Certainly, they did not walk to Pope's Creek and Owens does not mention the introduction of fresh mounts.  Why use different horses when the two they rode in on are at hand?  I do not know what you mean by your question, "So how did they move about wiothout horses?"  My premis is that Booth & Herold were moved from the hiding place near Rich Hill to Newport, not shuffled back & forth, and stayed there until they were moved to Pope's Creek.

Also, I have difficulty believing that the stirrup iron and bit pieces found by Mr. Watson are related to Booth & Herold.  After 145 years or so in water, especially if there are corrosive properties present, stirrup iron would cease to exist, or at best be unrecognizable as rust.

Also, for the record, you make reference to Mr. Hall's & Rick's horse faking theory.  I am obliged to Mr. Hall for the Owens Statement, but the horse faking theory presented in the Courier article is my own.

Thanks for your very kind and generous comments; it was a great pleasure to meet you and visit with you during the Conference also.

Rick


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rich smyth
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« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2012, 12:43:51 PM »

Hello, I am not nearly the historian that the people who post here are and without a great knowledge of the events but...did'nt Thomas Jones say he and Herold walked to Popes Creek leading Booth on Jone's horse? If they had three horses why would'nt they all just ride?
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wild bill
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« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2012, 02:21:59 PM »

Rich Smyth is correct. Jones does say that in his book. Rich Smith and I believe that they in face used the 3 horses, but then as they should think of Jones, a lot of folks think we are natural-born prevaricators, too
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John Stanton
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« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2012, 03:09:44 PM »

This posting started out to discuss Booth's Layovers. I have to admit -it is great, and I read every word, but there is not a word about Booth's need for a "Passport". James Fowle, while testifying at the Boutwell Hearsings describes the "Passport". It consists of two letters. One is signed by the Sec. of State and the other is signed by the Chief of the Secret Service - James Norris. Fowle says that "if you were going north, and had no Passport, you wer arrested and taken back to Richmond." "If you were going south, you were ignored and were denied any help." See "Travels with a Doctor" by Kensey Johns Steuart, he was a cousin of R. E. Lee, he had to build his own boat to cross - no help.  Sarah Slater was moving south to get documents for the Saint Albans Raiders, and had to wire ahead to get a Passport. I believe that there were no exceptions. Booth needed a passport and Thomas Jones couldn't get one. Delay! Booth sat still until Joned developed Plan B. This suggests that the South DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS COMING, or he would have crossed promptly. Does that tell us something about the involvement of the Confederate Government?
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BoothBuff
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« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2012, 03:38:21 PM »

     That was very interesting, John. I've always suspected the only help/sanctioning/blessing Booth got was from Montreal.
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BAT
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« Reply #56 on: March 30, 2012, 06:57:04 AM »

I find it hard to believe that Booth and Herold by "sheer luck" happened to be crossing the Rappahannock at the same time/place as that trio (or quartet) of Confederate soldiers, especially considering that one of them was Lt. Mortimer Ruggles who had been second in command to Thomas Nelson Conrad under Mosby, and Conrad had spent weeks in Washington in late 1864 to scout out and plan the kidnapping of Lincoln.  I think that someone (perhaps alerted by Harbin) had a hand in making sure that Ruggles and his comrades were there to help out Booth in his escape.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 10:51:06 AM by BAT » Logged

Bruce Trinque
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« Reply #57 on: March 30, 2012, 07:41:44 AM »

Rick Smith and I posited just that sort of role in our bio of Harbin, in the Shadows of the Lincoln Assassination
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BoothBuff
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« Reply #58 on: March 30, 2012, 07:15:33 PM »

     Sorry to backtrack, but I just noticed Rick Smyth's post on the first page of this thread. I found a webpage regarding Newburgh, N.Y. onetime and it had an entry about JWB stopping in Newburgh. I haven't been able to find it since. It mentioned that Booth was noticed to get off a train on a stop there. He went to a saloon and filled his flask and bought some shirt collars before re-boarding. That's all that was mentioned.
     Newburgh is about 45 minutes from me and is at the junction for the N.Y. Thruway, which one would take to head north. It is close to the Hudson River and from what I've seen regarding the layout of the railroad at that time, it would be a stop for anyone heading north to New England or Canada as Booth did several times. I'm sure he went through there many times enroute to Boston or on his NE tour of 1863.     
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Roger Norton
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« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2012, 03:28:00 AM »

Joe, the Newburgh stop of Booth is mentioned in both Come Retribution and April '65.

In his book on Newburgh, author Kevin Barrett writes, "Actor and later assassin John Wilkes Booth traveled through this station on his way to Buffalo. His stay in Newburgh was brief, but he made quite a negative impression. Newspaper accounts later described him as somewhat of a self-absorbed braggart." It could be that Booth was attempting to meet up with Confederate agent Robert Edwin Coxe. I am sure Bill or Rick can elaborate.

The old West Shore Train Station in Newburgh
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 04:56:30 AM by Roger Norton » Logged
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